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`The African respects people who do not fear`
2007-05-29 08:58:39
By Bernard Mapalala
The above quotation was bestowed on WOLFGANG `WOLF` DOURADO by famous British journalist Colin Legum in the 1970s. He was referring to Dourado`s tightrope performance in the pursuit of human rights under difficult political climate in Zanzibar, where he served as Attorney General for 13 years.
His father, Domingo Constancio Dourado, whom Wolf describes as having a quick temper, when he noted this trait in his son, advised him that the civil service was not for him as only ``Yes-Men`` could succeed there.
However, Dourado went against his father`s advice and joined the Zanzibar Attorney General`s Chambers in 1950 and paid for it.
After the 1964 Zanzibar Revolution, Dourado chose to remain behind and support the Revolutionary Government as other Goans fled, strongly believing that he could effect change from within the system.
In Zanzibar recently, The Guardian`s Deputy Managing Editor Bernard Mapalala was able to interview Dourado at his `White House` residence in Stone Town. Here are the excerpts:
QUESTION: We just want to go back to the past and the perspective on what you see about the present and future situation.
You have been a major player in the political transition of Zanzibar, having served in the top position of Attorney General immediately after the Revolution and for several years onwards.
Having retired now, although serving on contract as a Judge in the Lands Division and also as chairman of the Land Tribunal, are you comfortable with Zanzibar`s political and government institutions, are they stable and durable?
ANSWER: Well! Yes, I think I am. As far as they go they are stable. We don`t have too many changes…up and down up and down…So I can vouch for the stability.
Q: Do you think that they are durable enough to take Zanzibar into the future?
A: I think they should improve on the fitness.
Q: Much as it occurred over 40 years ago, the Zanzibar Revolution is still the main factor in the Isles` contemporary history and the major turning point from Arab rule. There are some people in Zanzibar, who seem to question both its legality and legitimacy. What is your opinion regarding this matter?
A: First briefly, for a revolution to take place it must succeed. It must succeed because a lot of revolutions have been thrown out. And they (the Zanzibar Revolutionary Government) have been in now for about forty years.
That`s quite a reasonable period…forty years. I have been all throughout the period with them. Before then I was with the British colonial government.
The British Government liked the Goans because they could be trusted with the cash, whereas our ndugus have light fingers! I think they (SMZ) are getting on alright.
Q: But what about the issue of people who have question marks about the legality of the Revolution? What would you say to those people?
A: But they are not many...
Q: But how valid is their stance?
A: How can it be valid? The Revolution has succeeded. It has gone on for forty years. It is there, whether you like it or not.
Q: Likewise, there are those who eye the Union of Tanganyika and Zanzibar with cold eyes. Being a prominent lawyer, and an insider in the political system, can you dwell on the legality and the legitimacy of the Union?
A: As for the legitimacy (of the Union), since it has succeeded, well…there it is! The Sultan has been thrown out. By and large the people are happy about it.
Q: You are still talking about the Revolution. What about the Union of Tanganyika and Zanzibar?
A: Since it has come into existence…now it is 40 years…it is legitimate. There are people on both sides. Some criticize it, but not openly.
Q: Do you think that the opponents of the Union will succeed at some point?
A: No! No! Too much time has passed. They will not succeed.
Q: I hope you know about people who have gone to court seeking to get the Articles of the Union. Do you think they have a point?
A: These people (the Government) should produce these documents. I do not know who is having them.
Q: As far as you know, because you were around then, are the documents really there?
A: Oh yeah! I have seen them. Where they are now, I don`t know.
Q: Zanzibar`s current legal structure is a departure from what it used to be in the past. It has evolved. During the treason trial, after President Karume had been assassinated, you served as both prosecutor and defence lawyer for the accused. Was this not a flawed legal system?
A: Of course it was flawed, and it was not my choice. They called me…Karume (before he was assassinated) had called me before the Revolutionary Council, and he said: `Hii ma-lawyer, ma-lawyer hatutaki.’ (We don`t want these lawyers).
We don`t want the system of private lawyers defending individuals, because poor people can`t afford lawyers. I told him he would face a lot of problems, and Mwalimu would not prefer such a legal system. He responded: `Leave Mwalimu in my hands. I will handle him`` (laughter).
So it was decided that there was no private practice in defence matters. Some of the members of the Revolutionary Council who opposed me on this issue were later to appear in the treason trial as accused persons.
When the trial was over, I reminded them that they had been opposing the commissioning of private lawyers and they were now experiencing the result of their stance.
Q: But do you think that those people (the accused) got justice, given the circumstances?
A: Not one was hanged…Some got light jail terms. I think they got justice, given the circumstances.
Q: In the earlier years of the Revolution, just as you have hinted, the political dynamics in Zanzibar were quite intense and unpredictable, what personal quality enabled you to survive in such a precarious situation?
A: You see…the African basically respects people who do not fear, and I did fear no one. So they respected me. They would say: `Huyu kweli dume.` (This is a real man). And I got along month to month until it is now forty years! So you ask me how I survived, heaven knows! But I survived.
Q: You won the trust of founder President Abeid Amani Karume up to the time he was assassinated. How close was your personal relationship?
A: We were very close, even if he flogged me.
Q: He flogged you? Why did he flog you?
A: I opposed forced (inter-racial) marriages (in 1970). I didn’t oppose natural marriages; I opposed forced ones, because both parties must be willing. So I got `viboko.`
Q: What position were you holding at that time?
A: Attorney General.
Q: And you were flogged?
A: Yes.
Q: And what did you do after that?
A: Then Karume came to prison to see me. I asked him: `Mzee, umefanya haya?` (Old man, why did you do this?). He answered: `Even though we do not agree with you on this matter, we shall still support you to continue holding the position of Attorney General. So you can go back to work now.`
Q: But he had imprisoned you already.
A: Only for one day.
Q: You said he flogged you and his sons also?
A: And his sons.
Q: Amani was also flogged?
A: Yes, with me!
Q: Why was Amani flogged?
A: Because when I opposed forced marriages, I told Ali Karume (Amani`s brother) `Don`t marry anyone by force. It (the marriage) will break up.` So he told his father: `Dourado has told me this, and he is an intelligent person.` And Amani told his father: `Why implicate Mzee Dourado in this matter? He has nothing to do with it.` So he was also thrown out of the house.
Q: You were close to the President. You knew both his positives and negative qualities. Can you briefly explain Mzee Karume as a person? Where did his personal strength lie?
Do you recall any specific incidents which reflect his character?
A: One thing, he was always neatly dressed…starch and all that.
For example, he came to my office during the colonial days, he eyes were brown very brown- and was putting on a very neat vest. On the paper he was holding was written a case number related to a widow.
He asked: ‘Why are you delaying dealing with this case?` I answered: ‘It is not me who is causing the delay. There several people who handle a particular case.`
So I sent for the clerk who was dealing with the matter.
He said that the widow had not been paid yet. I said: `Why is she not paid?` He answered: `The accounts are all ready. We are only waiting to pay.` So I said: `You make this payment right now in front of Mzee Karume, otherwise you go home and never come back.` The payment was made. So Karume went out, then he came back holding some money. He said: `You have helped us, and we must help you also.`
I responded, `People are saying that we are corrupt, and this is corruption!` Karume said: `Now I tell you this: I trust you. When the day comes for me to lead the government, I will make you the Attorney General.` That was before the Revolution. And of course, after the Revolution he called me, and from that time I was Attorney General.
Q: And how did you assess Abeid Karume as a leader?
A: He had good ideas. He wanted equality among the people. You now can`t do it the way he was doing, but he has done a lot of good. The Michenzani housing is a good thing, except that he flooded Stone Town with people. There too many people in Stone Town.
Q: As a long time observer of the Zanzibar political scenario, what do you think are the reasons behind the widened political divide in Zanzibar? Are there any lessons to be drawn from the Islands’ troubled history that can shed light on the future, especially the having of a durable political solution?
A: Well! The divisions will always be there, even now. There are differences between Pemba and Zanzibar, and in Zanzibar, there is North and South.
So these problems can carry on for a while, but to end them completely…it takes some time. We need elders, durable leaders. The elders…more elderly than me (laughter)…
Q: Finally, what is your advice to young Karume?
A: Amani?
Q: Yes.
A: He is a very gentle person, and the flogging that we had together, had brought us together (laughter), so whenever we meet we embrace each other. I recently won a human rights award, and I had a photograph with him.
I went to tell him personally. Then he called me, and said: `Take this photograph, circulate it to have money, and then give it to the Saint Francis Society to help the poor.` They wanted to give me a party, and I said: `Goans are not rich.
We don`t have money. Now the little money you have you want to spend it for a party! I don`t want the party. I appreciate the thought, (but) let us collect the money for the society.`
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