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INTERVIEW: Baraka Shamte on Zanzibar
2007-06-12 09:19:18
By
Recently, BARAKA SHAMTE, a veteran Zanzibar politician and son of first Zanzibar Chief Minister Mohammed Shamte, granted an exclusive interview to The Guardian`s Deputy Managing Editor BERNARD MAPALALA at his home in Stonetown. It dwelt on the political situation in Zanzibar and its historical dimension. Excerpts:
Q: You are the son of former Zanzibar chief minister Mohammed Shamte, to be exact, his sixth son, many people who were followers of his party are right now with the political opposition, how did it happen that you became a member of the ruling party?
A: I have been on the side of the current ruling party ever since I was young. I was a member of the Afro-Shirazi Youth League, while my father was originally a leader in the Afro Shirazi Party.
He did not place any obstacles on my path. To say the truth, my departed father was a very gentle and civilized person.
He advocated political freedom within the family. When he left the ASP and formed the Zanzibar People`s Party, I was at that time the deputy secretary general of the ASP Youth League.
We continued in different paths until the Zanzibar Revolution occurred in 1964. At that time, my father was already the chief minister of a government which was formed by his ZPP and the ZNP--a coalition that was opposed to the Afro Shirazi Party.
Q: So he was overthrown while he was the chief minister…
A: Yes, but the one who was overthrown was the Sultan, contrary to what people are saying, that it was my father who was overthrown, because the government did not have any real authority.
When the British left here, they left behind a monarchial government, which was in fact powerless because it was under the Sultan. The Afro Shirazi Party was not satisfied with the continued rule of the Sultan, and that was what led to the Revolution.
Q: What happened to your father after the Revolution, did he remain behind in Zanzibar or leave the Islands?
A: My father went into hiding, and I took part in helping him to go to a safe place. When time came and the government sought them, I personally took him to a place where he would be confined, and had I not done that, he would have lost his life.
Q: How did your personal relationship continue, given that situation?
A: It continued between father and son, and other relatives. As a family, we still remain one although we belong to different parties. So whenever any family events occur, we are always together.
Q: Did your father leave the country?
A: No. He didn’t. He was detained with other leaders of the deposed government, until time came for him to be released.
Q: How long was he detained?
A: It was more than 15 years. He was released from Keko Prison in Dar es Salaam. He thereafter lived in Dar es Salaam in a rented house.
Ten years later, he decided to visit his son the last born Juberi Mohammed Shamte, who was living in the Gulf States. Quite unfortunately, he died there during his visit, and he was buried there. It is not that he ran away from Tanzania. We lived with him here until the time he travelled to the Gulf.
Q: So despite the occurrence of the Revolution, you still had the heart to remain in the ruling party…
A: I am still with Chama cha Mapinduzi (CCM), being one of its cadres. With the advent of multi-party politics, I was posted as party district secretary in Wete, then became party secretary in Unguja Urban, and was later transferred to Pangani.
Q: Now let us dwell on politics. Since the 1964 Revolution, Zanzibar has been ruled by six presidents, including the incumbent President Amani Abeid Karume. Do you think that this frequent change of guard in the past 40 years has been useful?
A: The experience has been quite useful, first because we got democracy. Every ruler has come up with a form of democracy of his own. The first president was Mzee Karume, when there was no democracy it was a revolutionary government.
The second president (Aboud) Jumbe, when he came, introduced the House of Representatives. This was a step forward. When Ally Hassan Mwinyi came, he introduced the democracy of free trade. Until then, all the business was owned by the government.
So each one of them had brought a peculiar benefit. What remains at the moment is to consider that given our poverty, and the long list of retired presidents, will the economic situation allow us to take care of all of them?
This is what the ruling party should deliberate…the system of one president ruling for 10 years and retiring, then having a new one, does this mode satisfy the needs of a poor country?
Q: Given Zanzibar’s experience in the transition of power, are there any lessons which African countries can learn from Zanzibar?
A: This is indeed a big lesson (for Africa). And this lesson does not come from Zanzibar alone, but from the whole of Tanzania. The way our leaders hand over power to each other, is a unique example for Africa.
You cannot compare these criteria with any African country. It is rather unfortunate that we find it a problem in Africa to accept the democracy of this kind, where there is so much rivalry.
Q: For a keen observer of Zanzibar politics like yourself, you can see that since the late 1950s to date, when the Afro Shirazi Party entered several elections, and now CCM, the voting pattern has remained almost the same, with the winner usually scoring an additional narrow margin. Why has the pattern of voting in Zanzibar remained polarized?
A: There are many reasons for this. The first being the beliefs of the populace. Secondly, our type of democracy in Zanzibar is what Europeans call simple majority.
In 1962 at Chakechake, the Chakechake seat was snatched by Afro Shirazi Party by a single vote. Idarusi of ZNP and Hamisi Masoud of ASP were competing, and we won by just one vote.
The ballots were counted twice; still the British recognized the vote outcome. So Hizbu (ZNP) accepted the outcome and the winner entered the House, and there was no argument about the matter.
I am now surprised that these days, people are querying a narrow victory. A simple majority victory just one vote makes a decision, which we must all accept. Our politicians, especially those of the opposition, are trying to misread this kind of outcome.
When you lose by one vote, it means that you have been defeated. The problem that we have in Tanzania at the moment is that people have no civic education, and this is the mistake of party leaders, who are themselves conversant with civic education but deny it to their members.
They only feed them with explosive politics which make them believe that election victory always comes out in a big margin.
Q: But who is responsible for providing civic education. Is it not the government?
A: The government only prepares the way, but those who have to provide civic education are the political leaders…
Q: It is said that in Zanzibar, people are more faithful to their parties than their own country. If somebody is a CCM member, he would be prepared to die for that party, likewise a CUF member.
It is alleged that party loyalty is stronger in the Islands than patriotism…
A: Do you know why this is the case? It is the mistake of the leaders.
Q: Which leaders?
A: All leaders of political parties. They are the cause of these mistakes.
Q: You mean leaders of both (CCM and CUF) political parties?
A: Yes. They do not give civic education to their members. I’ll give you an example.
If you go to Pemba at this moment, you`ll find that once a CUF member crosses over to CCM, the whole family blacklists him.
And this is what happened to both parties in Pemba, during the controversy of the ghost votes’ election.
Q: What were the ghost votes?
A: There you are…The ghost votes. This was CUF’s political creation by mobilizing people not to cast their votes, so that whoever would be voted for, would receive just a few votes.
That person would become the area`s representative, but be elected by some very few cast ballots. The aim of this was to imply that although he had won, the votes that were not cast were far more than those which were cast…However, civil education dictates that if among 1,000 eligible voters, 400 did not turn out to vote, then the 600 who would vote are the ones to dictate who would win.
Q: Zanzibar has a long history of interaction with people of various races from other parts of the world, dating back to perhaps a thousand years. How do you assess its current multi racial status?
A: I wish to inform you one thing, that is, the history of Zanzibar…anybody who is on the Mainland will speak as if he knows the history of Zanzibar…even Nyerere… it took him many years to come to know Zanzibar.
It was during the meeting which he held at the JKU headquarters in Zanzibar, when he ultimately realized the politics of Zanzibar. He had failed to understand Zanzibar throughout this time, despite all his expertise. That’s why despite all his efforts, he failed to for a single (Union) government.
Even the current Prime Minister (Edward Lowassa), he understood Zanzibar during the voting for EALA representatives, after seeing the intrigues of the Civic United Front.
These people (CUF) are unpredictable. They would say one thing, but deep inside, they mean the other. They have got internal and external policy. They don’t state their internal policy.
Q: According to this statement, you imply that Zanzibar is very difficult to govern.
A: It is true, because the citizens themselves have got their own internal policy which all other people cannot understand. No leader can visit here, or stay for a month or a year, then conclude that he knows the Zanzibar situation more than we do…
Q: Do you mean that this internal policy of Zanzibaris is stronger than the official policy?
A: Yes, it is. President Jakaya Kikwete, despite all his attempts to end the political stalemate, I personally think that he will not succeed. The situation in Zanzibar…it is the Zanzibaris themselves who are embroiled in a conflict.
I will tell you one thing: In the Civic United Front, Sultanism is still in their blood, even though they will deny this fact at political platforms. Secondly, in CUF, there is Pembaism, even if they will deny this fact. All its leaders, 100 percent, are Pembans.
Go to Dar es Salaam; do your research, all CUF leaders who are leading the neigbourhood branches hail from Pemba. There is nobody from the Mainland.
Q: Many reasons are being given for the political impasse in Zanzibar. There are those who have gone as far as saying that the colour bar is the historical problem in Zanzibar. Any comments?
A: The problem is not the colour bar. It is simply discrimination. Here (in Zanzibar) there is Africanism and Arabism, not the colour bar that you are talking about, like in South Africa, where you have the whites, Africans, Goans etc…Here you have Arabs and Africans. Although people still deny the existence of the Arabism factor, it still exists. And Arabism means Sultanism.
Q: And where are these people?
A: They are in the opposition parties. Every person who indirectly supports Sultanism goes to the opposition CUF.
Q: All these people are living in one country. How can they be united as Zanzibaris? What strategy can be applied to make them united and see themselves as one people?
A: It is not possible…If you tell someone that now we are independent and the Sultan is no longer at the helm, but that person believes that the Sultan should still reign in Zanzibar, what will you do to that individual?
Q: Is there no positive contribution made by CUF in the political arena, like during House debates and various other proposals on how the country should be governed?
A: Such proposals have been given after CUF had failed to achieve its objectives through heavy handed methods.
If Zanzibar was all alone, there would have been more than 10 coup changes. What prevents such occurrences is the Union.
Q: The language that you are using contradicts the current terminology of ending the political conflict between CUF and CCM. It seems that things are now moving in the right direction.
A: Political conflict? Who is bringing this political conflict? When we talk about conflict, we have to discuss its source. And for CUF, as long as there is no person from Pemba who is elected as President, they won’t believe that democracy exists.
Q: Why should a person from Pemba not become president?
A: Not that they are not wanted; the important thing is to have one who qualifies for that post…
Q: The ruling CCM which is the TANU/ASP umbrella has been in power for so many years. How long do you think it will continue to reign?
A: Given the existing situation where all those opposition parties are in fact not parties but people`s private companies it will continue for a long time…
Q: We have discussed the problem areas; let us now turn to the future. What is the future hope of Zanzibar, politically, economically and socially?
A: Economic issues fall in the reserve of the Zanzibar and Union governments. There are sticking issues between the Zanzibar and Union governments.
Once a solution is found and the Zanzibar government is given the opportunity to develop the economy…and the economy is not just internal, it is also external. Zanzibar has no arable land. Zanzibar depends upon factories.
There are no cloves…The government is solely depending on tourism. How far has the Union government shown a resolve to help Zanzibar have a reputable port of its own? How about supporting Zanzibar in building factories that will process marine products?
We have no minerals… Right now there is talk about the presence of oil. The Union government should help Zanzibar exploit that oil.
Q: Won`t there be any conflict on dividing the oil income?
A: The important thing is negotiation, as democracy demands. Those who question too much about what falls under the auspices of the Union government are usually from the political opposition, although they don’t raise up the issue in the legislature as to how a particular aspect should be integrated as a Union affair.
Theirs is just street talk.
Q: The vehemence in Zanzibar`s political arena is not reflected in the economic field. Indeed, the Isles` politics are more vehement than those of the Mainland. Why the prominence of economics over politics in Zanzibar?
A: Your attitude is not correct…Firstly, Zanzibar is a small country…do not expect traders in Zanzibar and those in Mwanza to prosper in the same manner.
The economic outlook of Mainland and Zanzibar is different…The political temperature in Zanzibar is high only during elections, and people are preoccupied with economic activities at other times...
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