|
`If the boat capsizes, we all drown`
2008-03-13 09:20:53
By Bernard Mapalala
Yesterday, Attorney General Johnson Mwanyika, flanked by Inspector General Said Mwema had an interactive meeting with media editors held under the auspices of the Editors` Forum in Dar es Salaam. The meeting dwelt on various questions related to the work of the Presidential Probe Team on the EPA Account Scandal. The meeting was chaired by Editors Forum Chairperson Sakina Datoo. Here are excerpts of what was discussed as transcribed by Deputy Managing Editor Bernard Mapalala:
Question 1: The Attorney General has dwelt upon the issue of instituting charges against people who stole from BoT. There are implicated firm owners who are bringing back the stolen money to the committee. Is it not the right time to arrest them so that legal action may follow?
Question 2: This money that is being announced as having been returned, where is it being paid? In which account?
Question 3: The money that was recovered is said to be to the tune of 53bn/-. We need to know out of that some, how much of the figure is in form of seized property, and who evaluated those assets. How can we be sure that the evaluation of the impounded property is not inflated, such that we may end up getting very little money in the end?
Question 4: There a lot of fears concerning proprietors of firms that stole money at the central bank. There is a big possibility that these people will vanish, although they need to face criminal charges. How can the government or the probe team assure the people that these suspects will be arrested and brought to justice?
Question 5: Two of the presidential probe team members have been implicated in the Richmond scandal. How can these persons be entrusted to investigate another scandal? What are your comments?
AG: For the first question, because we have an expert here the IGP…. (Changes his mind) Maybe I will reply to that one, concerning the arrest of the suspects.
Like I said earlier in my statement, our main responsibility at the moment is to recover the money. And those who are mainly responsible are the firms that were named.
You know that a company is a corporate person. It is true that there are owners of these (implicated) companies, but in matters like theft, it is possible that a firm can commit a crime, but not necessarily the owners.
The main thing is to identify who really went to BoT to collect the money through the EPA Account. That is why we must conduct this on-going investigation.
We are interrogating officials of those companies, so that we can single out who really took part in collecting the money from BoT. On the question asked that the money that is being recovered is placed in which account?
This is government money, because once it is paid back it becomes government money, it is deposited in accounts specially reserved for the purpose. We know these accounts (Loud whispers).
Sakina: Excuse me, there are some whispers…To help clarify the matter, maybe give us the name of one such account….
AG: This kind of money, because it is we in the team who have been invested with such a task, there must be a special account to deposit such money. That is what we do, Ndugu Editors…As I said earlier, it is a special account for depositing the recovered cash.
The truth is that those people…(Interrupted from the floor, then continues). We (the team) meet these companies. The firms issue the cheques. It is these cheques which we deposit in the special account.
(Interruption from the floor): Are you discussing with companies or individuals from those firms?
Sakina: I am sorry. We got to have some order. I know that we want to know a lot of things, and we have many questions, but we have to follow procedures. We have our invited guest (the AG), whom we have invited for that purpose.
We have to ask him questions in an orderly way and he would answer in that order.
AG: Concerning the question asked about the money that was recovered…that some property had been seized, what I can say is that what we are doing at the moment is that we are conducting investigations so as to establish who was really involved in the theft that took place from the EPA Account.
There are some accounts that we have frozen, but there is also some immovable property. We have sent a special notice to prevent transfer of ownership of such assets.
We are currently trying to establish the value of such properties, so that if the firm that should pay us fails to do so, then we can dispose the assets.
As you see us here, I am with the IGP.
He is an expert in investigations, and he is actually an international policeman. We are aware of that problem and we are working on it, to make sure that people from those companies who were involved will not avoid facing the crimes they have committed.
The other question was: One of the suspects was Ballali, why has he not been arrested? Are we still interrogating him? As I have explained earlier, our current priority is to return the money that was taken from the EPA Account. At the same time we are continuing with investigations.
The probing of criminal offences is not a joke, especially in a situation like this one where there is a lot of forgery and paperwork. So if we shall discover during the investigations that Ballali was involved, we shall take action. But as we are talking, we have not reached that stage. I therefore pray for patience. When we reach that stage, we shall take the appropriate steps.
On the question that the investigation team has got suspects who have been implicated in the Richmond scandal. I would say that this is not the right place to discuss the matter, but I can state that for those who know me, I am a clean person. I want to repeat, I am a clean person.
If you want to know me, go and question all the people I have worked with, starting from the time I was employed as a civil servant on March 10, 1973. I want to assure you that when the President formed this team, he named offices, not individuals. It is the Attorney General`s Office, PCCB and the Inspector General`s Office.
We are there by virtue of our posts, but it is the institutions that have been entrusted with this task. Whether Mwanyika is there or not, the work will proceed. IGP, if you have something to say, please do so.
IGP: I wish to thank the media people for availing us this opportunity. If we take into account the period which this country is passing through, there has been a big and hot debate on issues related with grand corruption in this country.
This country belongs to us all. It is like people traveling in the same boat. If the boat capsizes, we all drown. The matter that we are dealing with is big, and it touches the interests of our country.
Our main aim is to put matters openly and clearly, especially in areas that were not well understood in our earlier statements, and also to enlighten the media, because if you understand, you shall also be able to enlighten the public, so that you support us in accomplishing this huge task that is vital and honourable.
If I take your questions in their totality, I see two main suspicions. First, about the suspects, they are seen in town, bragging, and thus annoying us. Why are we still seeing them in town? We know so and so, and these matters are irritating us. That I know Saidi Mwema, and his firm was implicated, yet I do not see him at Ukonga (Prison) or Keko.
So what is this (presidential probe) team all about? What are they doing? This is an issue that disturbs everybody. We in the team also feel the same way, that whenever we are asked this question, and we give answers that are not understood, it also sends waves of doubts to others.
And if these doubts remain, the nation will not be heading for the right direction. Our main intention here is to state why you are still seeing them (the suspects) as we also fail to bear why these people who have been implicated have not been sent to prison. Why is the problem so difficult? Are we afraid of them? Are we (team members) also among the `mafisadi`?
People are asking so many questions, and if you as editors don’t understand the issue, and you are the ones who communicate with the wananchi, then this matter will bring a lot of problems. The AG said, everybody knows, and everybody wants, that the money that was stolen should be recovered.
There is no doubt about that. And in executing such a task, we are not the first in Tanzania. Many countries make efforts to recover stolen money. That is the immediate task. In Kenya they had Goldenberg.
A lot of money was stolen, and they are still struggling with the case. Right now all over the world, the police and spy agencies are battling against terrorist networks, and the main task that they do is to break the financial power of those who are financing terrorism.
Although the financers remain free, they are weakened financially by freezing their money. We have the Proceeds Act in Tanzania, and the Money Laundering Act.
We have the PCCB Act, all these are for ensuring that we can trace and seize the money that was illegally acquired from any person. Let us give a simple example of a person whose cow has been stolen, another person has his car stolen.
When a car is stolen, it is sold to a second person, who sells it to a third party, who sells it to a fourth person. The first thing that the car owner needs is the car.
Even if the seventh or eighth buyer pleads innocence and there 50 witnesses, the law regards the last person as a thief and the car should be returned to the rightful owner. So this is how the tracing of stolen money is undertaken.
We are simply looking where the money is. Where the money stolen from the central bank has ended up, in whose hands, even if it is the twentieth of fortieth party, it should be recovered.
|
